Sako TRG-42
 

Sako TRG-42

http://www.snipercentral.com/trg21.htm<http: www.snipercentral.com="" trg21.htm="">

I spoke to my dealer about this gun, as I hope to go bush and do some hunting in the next couple of years, (possibly Buffalo etc.) and I'm looking to purchase a really nice rifle and scope. Looking at .338 Lapua calibre with a Leupold scope or similar, a good bipod, Harris or similar, and would prefer the barrel and chamber be chrome-lined (not sure if they are by default). I know a setup like this isn't cheap, just the rifle is about $3700 USD here or so, before you even connect a scope and bipod, so I'm starting research now before I even think about committing money to such a project. I would probably buy it from the states as it is bound to be cheaper than here, and just import it...

He said with the Sako you are mainly paying for the brand name, and claimed that the Steyr/Mannlicher scout was as accurate and could fire small groups out to 1000 metres! He even claimed he could get similar accuracy with a Weatherby (which I suspect may have an Anschutz action/barrel).

Any thoughts? Is he just trying to sell the Steyrs, or is there some truth to this? The scout as far as I'm aware is not a heavy barrel like the Sako, but I haven't seen a .338 Lapua version, so I guess it's possible one exists...</http:>

Re: Sako TRG-42
 

I would think that you don't need the distance as much as the knock-down power. Wouldn't a 375 H&H do the trick? It would save you a lot of money also.

Re: Sako TRG-42
 

A good point, but I want to also use this rifle for some competitive shooting and as an all-rounder, next to a .22 target rifle, it will probably be the only other rifle I own, I would think (I don't want to be reloading for two many calibers either. 3 max preferrably. So I should be able to get away with a turret press.). I will have to investigate if the caliber has a competitive category here, I'm pretty sure it would. I'll want to compete in rifle .22 scoped/unscoped and .338 Lapua magnum caliber scoped only if possible. So yeah, an expensive rifle to buy, but I could get it to do the job of two or three hopefully.

With the right load I'm pretty sure .338 Lapua is going to be capable of knocking down large game at a decent distance, and hopefully providing enough accuracy to hit it in the right spot and put it down fast and humanely.


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Re: Sako TRG-42
 

The TRG is by all accounts a fine rifle, but the real question is wheter or not you're an advanced enough shooter to take advantage of its capabilities. Most people aren't, I'm not. In that respect your dealer is correct in that you'll get equivalent real world performance out of a cheaper but still good rifle.

Since you had mentioned wanting to hunt buffalo I would suggest taking a look at a CZ 550 Safari Magnum. It isn't a sniper rifle, it's a big and dangerous game hunting rifle. They have a good reputation as being a hunt-ready rifle out of the box among African guides and they weigh a couple pounds less than the TRG which you'll come to appreciate after lugging the thing around a few hours. 5rds of .375H&H magnum ought to be able to do the trick but it's available in other chamberings in case you're hunting dinosaurs.

http://cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=23

The 550 Medium would be worth looking at, too. It's a little bit lighter still and available in chambering that should do the job if you can.

There's lots of good longarms out there to choose from but I'd consider it from the perspective of whether I was trying to buy a practical hunting rifle or a cool sniper rifle.

Re: Sako TRG-42
 

The Springfield SOCCOM 2 in 308 for "specialized work".

Marlin lever-action in 45/70 with the Buffalo Bore 500 grain magnum with full metal jacket. Buffalo Bore has taken every large and dangerous animal on every continent.

I dropped a Brown Bear with it under quite stressful circumstances two years ago in Alaska. One round--all luck--no skill. Well, maybe a little skill.

CC

Re: Sako TRG-42
 

Kills on one end, maims on the other.:bear_w00t:

Re: Sako TRG-42
 

My first order for those rounds had a note in the box--

"Be sure your rifle is sighted in perfectly.You aren't going to want to fire it more than once."

So before I tried the 500 grain round I took the rifle to the gunsmith, had the barrell ported maximum, and had the biggest, baddest, thickest recoil pad installed.

Took it home, fired it--and not that bad. Biggest problem was all the birds falling from the sky from the noise.

But that weapon certainly did what it needed to do when I needed it. The bear was running at me with his head down and his nose pointed right at my midsection. The bullet entered just back of the nose and took out all kinds of important stuff as it traveled through. His head actually ballooned. Didn't come apart but popped all kinds of stuff out of his ears. Throat came clear apart. It stopped in the intestines and what a batch of damage on the way.

Using that rifle to shoot a buffalo would not concern me a bit.

CC

Re: Sako TRG-42
 

I should point out the target species are of course water buffalo, but I'm guessing you already know that.

After some research I have found that under 80m is usually the distance they are hunted at, so this rifle may well not be suited for that task.

Not that you couldn't use it of course, but it is perhaps too nice a weapon to risk bashing around in the bush to get a buffalo, at 80m you would need to be able to shoot and scoot if you don't drop it with the first shot, and this large gun, heavy long barrel, and scope is going to hamper that ability.

In particular the scope which will be unsuitable at 80m. Not that I couldn't fit a different scope though...

Hmm.

Re: Sako TRG-42
 

That does look like a well suited rifle. I guess the thing is, I'll probably only want to hunt that species once or twice in my lifetime, so buying a specialized gun in such a high caliber is probably not going to work out well financially. I could of course hire a gun or go with a guide and use a loaner.

The other rifle appeals on many levels, including as a great survival tool. It should be well suitable for taking down a large game animal, but I would probably have to increase the distance I hunt it at. There are lots of pretty sophisticated loads around like Core-Lokt etc. that seem to be able to deliver all the energy on the target and not fragment.

Re: Sako TRG-42
 

The Sako TRG-S is a sporter configured rifle w/synthetic stock which is also chambered in .338 Lapua. Cost about $1000. Might be more apropos to your task, unless you are going to be routinely shooting 1500yd targets.

The TRG42 is a superb longrange sniper system rifle. Has the finest adjustable stock in the world, a superb easily adjusted trigger, and a heavy 27" barrel. With the Lapua you want the muzzlebrake.

With a suitable scope like a 5-15x Nightforce and a few accessories, you are looking at $5,000; but what a rifle!

The TRG-S uses almost the same M995 action, but does not feature the 5rd magazine or solid top receiver. The S can utilize 5rd mags, but $180 is a bit steep just to gain another 2 rds. Gotta figure, if you can't down your quarry with 3 shots, will you do it with 5?

If you are planning to hunt in Africa, you might verify that your intended area will allow sub-caliber rifles to be used. Many countries have a .375 caliber (9.6mm) minimum for hunting dangerous game. Is Water Buffalo classed as "dangerous"? Maybe not, but I wouldn't want one angry at me.

Good luck. Either Sako is a superb rifle. If you really want to shoot small groups at superlong distance, the .338lapua is the ticket.

Re: Sako TRG-42
 

Thanks very much. It's great to get advice from people who know what they are talking about.

Re: Sako TRG-42
 

S2,

For the amounts of money you are talking about spending, you SHOULD be able to get a custom, hand made FOR YOU rifle.

I personally LIKE your choice of calibers. The .338 Lapua is the choice of long range shooters and snipers. And the .22 caliber is great for 'little varmits'.

For your full sized rifle caliber, I would use a Remington 700 receiver. A Shilen #7 barrel in about a 24 inch length. With or without a muzzle brake. Given your choice of rifles, I would also recommend a McMillan A-4 Tactical stock . For a scope, probably something in a 3x - 9x variable power. I personally use a Burris Signature series and like it a lot. If you plan on any low light shooting, then having a scope that has a 'lit reticle' is always handy, but NOT absolutely necessary. Harris bipod is a given (note - the McMillan A-4 stock has TWO front swivels, one for the bipod, one for your sling). You CAN replace the Remington trigger, but I found that if you just smooth up all the inner workings with an India Stone and then properly adjust it, I get a crisp break at 5 lbs of pressure. Every time. Free float the barrel, bed the reciever and tune the bolt to the custom cut barrel/reciever combo. That should pretty much give you exactly what you seek.

For a .22, consider the 'lowly' Ruger 10/22. You can COMPLETELY cusomtize one that will shoot the ten ring out to about 100 yards. Given the weight of this bullet, they are not accurate long distance shooters, especially if there is any wind present. But you can customize a 10/22 with the bolt replaced, the barrel replaced, the stock replaced, trigger group replaced, good scope and a Harris Bipod. You should be able to get this for around $1000 for the package. If not, drop me a line, I'll do some more research amoung my gunsmithing buddies and try and find you WHO you should contact for this type of work.

I used to guarantee 1/2 MOA when I built custom rifles. That's three shots within 1/2 inch at 100 yards. It should net you three rounds touching. I've done a few now. But I retired last year and don't plan on doing any more custom rifles, mainly because I no longer have the access to a lathe that I used to have access to.

But for the $$$$ you are talking about spending, almost ANY comptent gunsmith can make you a much better rifle with ALL top of the line components that fit you EXACTLY.

There is ONE downside to a custom made rifle. If you intend to sell this rifle at any point in the future, remember it's made to FIT YOU exactly. So your customer is going to have to be your size, and like the choices you made in the buildup of that particular rifle.

But if you intend to make this one a 'keeper', then by all means, go 'whole hog' and treat yourself to a custom made rifle. You won't regret it.

Re: Sako TRG-42
 

Unless you are able to find one of the supposedly soon to be released Rem 700 actions in SuperMagnum bolt size, I wouldn't go Rem 700 for a Lapua Magnum rifle. The SuperMagnum ctgs (.378Wby and Lapua) have a much larger head diameter than the .572 standard magnum ctgs. The Remington Ultra magnum series (.7mm, .300, .338, .375) will all use the standard magnum bolt w/o any alteration necessary. To make a Lapua fit a Rem 700 action requires milling the bolt head and fitting a new extractor.

Actually, the Sako is about the only factory standard rifle chambered for .338Lapua, unless Weatherby has begun chambering them. I looked at Barnes #3 and saw that the Lapua case head dia is .588 while the .378Wby is .579. Sako bolts (for TRG-S and TRG 22/42) come in 3 sizes, std, mag, & supermag. There is not a specific bolt cataloged for the Lapua ctg by Sako, so a .30-378Wby action could be rebarrelled to .338 lapua.

Really, a better choice would be to go with a wildcat ctg or the .338RUM. Get a Sendero in .338RUM and don't look back. They haven't been made in 4 years, but I know where an unfired one can be had.

If you are a handloader, a .338-300RUM which is a necked up .300RUM is a more versatile case to use. Gets you More Power! As if you could need it. There is also an Ackley Improved variation of the necked up .300RUM that is widely touted.

My own experience is that the .338-300 Win Mag is The .338 ctg to own. More versatility for the handloader, cheaper cases (just a necked up .300Win Mag), and less recoil and powder burning.

What you won't hear from Magnum Afficionados is that your barrel will burn out in about 600 shots. Some of these morons advise testing every primer, powder and bullet combination, looking for a "sweet spot" load. By the time they've found it; if they haven't suffered a detached retina, they've burnt their new barrel out of the accuracy ballpark.

The .338-300 is a kitten with as little as 64gr of 4350 powder and a 250gr bullet, or a lion with 76gr. With "lion" loads you are duplicating the .340Wby mag, and almost up to .338RUM velocities. (Do NOT use my load data!)

Actually, I own ALL the rifles and ctgs I have been discussing here with the exception of .375RUM and .338-378Wby, and Lapua. I have a new 26" Pac Nor .338 Win barrel to fit to my TRG 42 and a .338-300WinMag reamer. I do my own gunsmithing.

Personally, I think a .338-06 or .35 Whelen will do everything a magnum can; except the longrange work. An Ackley Improved chamber will give some additional flexibility. Lots of Big Game has been killed with lesser cartridges. There is something to be said for owning a rifle that won't disable your hearing if you fire it once without hearing protection.

For firing bullets of 200gr or more, a .338 or .358 dia bullet has definite advantage over any .308 dia. Lower pressure at equal velocity is the main benefit. Anytime you can use less powder to launch a bullet at equal velocity you are increasing your barrel longevity. For the most versatile magnum going, nothing can beat the .338/300Win. For a large caliber, almost magnum velocity rifle that you can shoot thousands of times, nothing will beat a .338-06Ackley Improved. Of course, you have to handload to get these results, but unless you are a handloader, you will Never get much performance out of any rifle you own.

Hope this discussion is of value to you.

Re: Sako TRG-42
 

Uhh. I have seen wild Water Buffalo in Africa, they are definately dangerous! The kind of thing you want to shoot at long range in case you need a head-start.


:D

Re: Sako TRG-42
 

MM,
Actually, I've held and shot a Rem 700 Ultra action in .338 Lapua. Going to gunsmithing school, you get students that JUST HAVE TO HAVE the biggest baddest cartridge ever.

My bench mate and I both bought .50 cal bolt action receivers. After firing a finished one, I changed my mind and SOLD my receiver. Bought several other items instead. My buddy kept his and finished it. Looks great, works great. A MOTHER to light off, but hey, if you like long range sniping, their is nothing that beats the reliable fifty caliber round.

And if you can 'shoot out' a #7 Shilen barrel (#8 is their heaviest) with 600 rounds, then it will be a FIRST. Because Shilen makes their barrels to last.

I've seen them shoot THOUSANDS of rounds with no appreciable wear of the barrel itself. Yes, even firing .375 H&H, which is a monster round.

I've shot a MAUSER that was converted to .338 Lapua. Used in Viet Nam by one of our snipers. The guy brought it home as his war trophy. When he died, his wife sold his gun collection to a guy I know. REALLY NICE Mauser. Especially in .338 Lapua. Even had the military issued scope still attached.

S2 - I double checked with a gunsmithing buddy of mine and he said if HE were to build you one, his labor would run somewhere between $600 - $1000 plus the cost of the parts for the rifle you want. He said a custom hand built rifle for $2000 is VERY doable. Depending on the 'parts' you want. You WON'T go wrong with a custom built rifle. IF you chose the correct gunsmith to do the work, select QUALITY parts and let the gunsmith do his job without constantly 'checking' on the progress. Nothing worse than to have to stop what you are doing to answer the phone, only to waste five minutes (some times considerably more) to hand hold a customer who's 'worried' about how his rifle is being built.

And yes, if you want a SAKO reciever instead of Rem 700, that's YOUR CHOICE. He will build you ANYTHING you want. I would, but I don't any more. Hope that helps.

Re: Sako TRG-42
 

Wallew,

I own several Shilen barrels. They are nice, but nothing very special compared to Krieger, Hart, Pac-Nor or Mike Rock. None of these barrelmakers has access to any special steel that will not burn its throat when heavy loads of powder propel a jacketed bullet at high velocity down the tube.

The throat is where the accuracy is made & lost. Burn 110 grains of 7828 and any barrel will be shot out in 600 rds. Most benchrest competitors will not go over 800rds in a barrel. They are firing light loads with 60gr 6mm bullets and they still see their accuracy diminish around 700 rds. A barrel can be cut, rethreaded and chambered again to bypass the burned throat area, but the benchrest guys are not impressed; sometimes this works, often it doesn't.

A .338 Lapua burns over 100 grains of powder and a .338-378Wby burns up to 124gr. Maybe you could minimize the destruction of the steel by letting the barrel cool totally between shots, but who would do that?

Likely, even the best shots don't see the degradation that occurs on the behemoth ctgs because they are not capable of fine enough accuracy UNLESS fired from some 35-50lb 1000 yd unlimited category benchrest monster. Minute-of-ribcage is not very critical.

The Remington 700 bolt nose is part of their "circle of steel" in that the ctg case is fully enclosed minimizing danger in case of ctg failure. The bolt nose thickness on a magnum bolt is .065". I measured it to be sure. If further material is removed to enable the Lapua to chamber, man!

Karamojo Bell shot several hundred elephants with a 7mm Mauser.
A .338 Lapua is such a super specialized weapon whose ammunition costs so much to buy, or handload that it is really an impractical round to pursue imho. Ammunition that costs $5+ per round is a bit over the pale for me.

Something else not discussed yet is Rate of Twist. To accurately fire 300gr .338 bullets like Sierra Matchking and maybe the Hornady match bullet, you need a faster than typical rate of twist or the long bullet will not stabilize effectively. Then, you better have a really SUPERB scope and ring/mount combination. The huge recoil generated by the Lapua will destroy many scopes, especially those using wire reticles. To keep your scope from shifting you need THE BEST mount and Rings money can buy. Badger Ord is a good proposition, or Near Manufacturing for those. A scope with a glass etched reticle is pretty much a MUST!

The first and only time I fired a .338-378Wby, I was at the range. Guy was shooting his cannon, a Weatherby Synthetic with a muzzlebrake, and a Simmons scope. The rifle was not even on target at 100yds. Likely the cheap junk scope was broken. This guy couldn't tell, he just loved making dust devils every time his rifle ignited.

Everybody has an opinion when it comes to shooting. A .375H&H or .458Win would dispatch any water buffalo very handily. I would avoid a SuperMag ctg unless it is a gotta-have sorta deal. Then go for it, but take your checkbook.

Re: Sako TRG-42
 

Works great on that Kevlar bear skin too. :wink:

Re: Sako TRG-42
 

MM,
Lets address these ONE AT A TIME.

1) A 'burned out throat' barrel that was cut shorter (past the burned out spot - according to you) then the chamber is recut. You say the 'benchrest guys' are not impressed. Then they are bigger IDIOTS than you are. IF the barrel is STILL USABLE, rethreading the barrel and then recutting a chamber WILL ALWAYS net you better accuracy. IF THE PERSON CUTTING THE CHAMBER KNOWS THEIR STUFF. I DO and I HAVE recut several chambers over the years (generally at the request of the SHOOTER). With NOTHING but positive results. ME. I DID IT.

Until about two years ago I had in excess of $4000 tied up in reamers. Sold them to a buddy of mine when I decided to stop making custom rifles. WHY? Because of people who felt they KNEW way more than me. Who thought THEY could build a better rifle CHEAPER. PLEASE.

If you CAN'T do this, fine. But don't state that it might not work. If you have a COMPETENT GUNSMITH WORKING WITH EXCELLENT EQUIPMENT, IT WILL WORK. EVERY TIME.

2) Who would let a barrel cool between shots? UH, most experienced LONG DISTANCE SHOOTERS, that's who. At least that's what the long distance shooters that I know tell me. "Take a shot, wait a minute (or five) and THEN shoot your next round - all the while marking your shots on your pad at the bench. It's a process I never really got into. I LIKE automatic weapons. WAY MORE FUN.

3) Please. ALL REM 700 bolts are .065. IT IS ONE of their 'Three Rings of Steel' that they hype in their advertisement. I just rechecked mine (.308 BDL Hvy Barrel) and it specs out at .064 (I removed about .001 when I 'tuned' my Rem 700 bolt). Works great. SO ANY REM 700 bolt that I tuned (turned while on a jig) will be ONLY .064 because it NOW fits the chamber I just cut PERFECTLY. I'm VERY ANAL about cutting chambers. I ALWAYS cut my chambers a bit tight. Almost to where the bolt physically won't close - ALMOST. When I cut a chamber and test fit it to the receiver and then test fit the bolt, I get it within about .003, which is what MY CRUSH of the barrel/receiver is.

4) I think this statement speaks VOLUMES. If you want A SPECIFIC WEAPON, SHOOTING A SPECIFIC CALIBER, THEN MONEY SHOULD NEVER come into the equation. If it does, then you will 'cut corners' to fit your budget. THIS IS NOT THE WAY TO GET A HIGH POWERED CUSTOM RIFLE BUILT. If you can't go FIRST CLASS, stay home. I DO.

It seems your main argument is that you don't think it's 'WORTH' the money to get a custom built rifle that will do EVERYTHING that S2 wants it to do, IN THE CALIBER HE WANTS FOR LESS than the Sako he posted.

If you think .338 Lapua is expensive to handload, consider the costs involved to handload a .50 caliber round. Properly done, about $7.50 a round. But that does NOT include the cost of the reloader or dies. They are BOTH special made items, so you can't just throw them in the reloader that is down on your bench now. Unless you ALREADY RELOAD .50 cal.

5) Take your checkbook.

Funny, that's EXACTLY what I was getting at. You can have a BETTER CUSTOM RIFLE, HAND BUILT for WAY LESS than the cost of the SAKO rifle shades2 is discussing. He could EVEN use most of the same ingredients and produce the SAME RIFLE for about a grand less than Sako wants to sell it to him for.

THIS WAS MY LIVELIHOOD FOR ALMOST TEN YEARS. I have a DEGREE in gunsmithing.

This was not a hobby, like it is FOR YOU. You present a lot of information that is either out right false or AT BEST your opinion. When you get that degree in gunsmithing and then spend ten years being a gunsmith, LET ME KNOW. Then we can discuss this as equals. Until then you are just another 'gun plumber'. Sorry bud, but that's just a fact of life.

Believe me when I say, the last person a gunsmith wants to meet is his 'clients widow's attorney'. Because the work YOU DID incorrectly killed your client. It never happened to me in the ten years I was a gunsmith. Guess I was just 'lucky', huh? BS. I was so careful it drove some of my instructors crazy.

I had my Basic Instructor tell me I would have to 'learn to work faster' if I wanted to 'make money' as a gunsmith. I turned on my stool, looked him square in the eye and told him, "If I wanted to 'make money', I would NOT be going to this school. I would have gone and gotten my Masters degree in computers and would have had ALL my work done by some poor gunsmith who ONLY MADE $50k that year". He looked at me, said, "OH" and NEVER bothered me about how fast I worked again. I am slow. Meticulous. ANAL. But NOT ONE of any firearm I worked on EVER had any problems. NOT ONE of my clients EVER requested a refund. Hell, none of them EVER asked for me to 'redo' anything I had done.

I DID get a few complaints about how 'slow' I was. But I generally only worked for those complainers once. I was always just 'too busy' to take any more work from those whiners.

Re: Sako TRG-42
 

Sorry if you took this as a personal attack Wallew.
I think if you were ever a serious gunsmith you would have owned a lathe and maybe a Bridgeport Mill. I don't know if you built benchrest rifles, but will go out on a limb and say you never have; not for any serious competitors.

I am not a fan of McMillan stocks. They are not anything special, aside from the wait and the price McM gets for them. H-S Precision is a better option for my money and yields a consistent result.

I think your advice to use an A-5 and a Remington action for a .338 Lapua was poorly considered.

I have improved about 5 or six of my barrels with reamers I own. Actually, I have gotten really fine results from Rem 700 factory barrels. About the only real gain I note from custom barrel maker products, firing standard twist weight bullets, comes in the ease with which the barrel cleans up.


A custom rifle, costing $2000 and requiring a 12 month wait is only a "deal" if there are no better alternatives. Right now, I wouldn't bet .05 on ever seeing a custom rifle if I ordered it today.

If you have ever handled an Accuracy International or Sako TRG sniper rifle, you would know there is no reason to wait for a "custom" if one of these was available. The Sako stock alone is worth about $1000 more than any McMillan or AI stock. Being able to buy parts from Beretta that fit to perfection, items like bolt bodies, which no one else will sell without sending in the entire rifle, makes the Sako a world apart from other "custom" products.

Funny thing, if you get into switchbarreling your rifles, you really come to understand that a minimum oal chamber is what will deliver the accuracy. Doesn't matter if Pope himself cut the chamber, if it is not almost at Go dimension, it will not produce the result desired without a lot of fine-tuning and load experimentation.

Unless you have gone the route of benchrest tuner you won't know these things. The benchrest tuner will set up a hunting rifle or tactical rifle the same way for the discerning client who handloads and understands the chamber dynamics at work.

I have encountered only a few guys who understand the chamber dynamic. One was State Palma Champion, so every possible tweak for accuracy at 1000 yds was critical to his goals. Many guys talk about their 3 shot groups, but that's because the other 2 were way out there. One of my rifles shoots five .308 matchkings consistently under .375 at 100 yds and under .7 at 200; with a 6x scope. Subtract the bullet diameter from the groups like the benchrest guys do and you can tell that rifle will shoot quite accurately. It has a used Remington PSS barrel on it that had 3k rds fired through it when I bought it. The rifle has a short oal chamber by accident, but what luck!

For $3K I bought a Sako TRG42. No waiting, best stock in the world, best trigger for field use, and a .300 Win Mag with 7rd capacity which will kill anything on earth.

I think anybody who is betting on getting a custom rifle delivered in the next 9-12 months will be pissing in the wind. I don't think there are that many weeks left to get your kit together; but that's just me.

Re: Sako TRG-42
 

Once again, your voice of inexperience is scary. Consider ACTUALLY learning something by doing it yourself. WOW, five or six rifle... BOY YOU GOT ME BEAT....

1) I never buy equipment my employer already owns. And you are SERIOUSLY behind the times. A Bridgeport mill is blase these days though that IS what I learned on. Everyone is buying the CHINESE MILLS these days. Much cheaper. Just as accurate. Same for the lathes. I can list the top three companies that sell in the USA if you want them.

2) Yeah the US MILITARY has no idea what they are talking about when THEY picked McMillan. Stupid military snipers. They only demand the best.

3) Opinions are like assholes. Even yours.

4) Then you APPARENTLY don't have a clue what building a rifle from scratch is all about now, do you. Custom barrel makers are in business BECAUSE the standard barrels just don't get it for shooters who demand the best.

5) If you go to someone who wants you to wait 12 months OR LONGER for a custom rifle, you are going to the wrong gunsmith. All that means is he takes orders for work so far out that even HE won't finish them all. A lot of people let their mouth overload their ability to actually produce a product. A GOOD smith should be able to build at LEAST two rifles a month, minimum. If the gun gods are smiling on you that month, then maybe as many as FOUR custom rifles.

6) That is ABSOLUTELY this biggest load of crap you've spoke yet. You like to speak in generalities. Shows how LITTLE you really know about building rifles. IF you know what you are doing, cutting a chamber is not only childs play, but it will take you LONGER to set up the machine than it will to cut the chamber. Apparently you either don't know what you are doing OR you have yet to reach that step. Keep practicing, you'll get the hang of it, eventually. MAYBE. MAYBE NOT.

7) Yeah, I didn't learn ANYTHING in the 14 months that I immersed myself in gunsmithing school and earned my degree in. I guess we should all sit at your feet and listen to you espouse your wisdom. Like I said. Go to school. Get MY degree. WORK IN THE FIELD FOR TEN YEARS. Then get back to me.

First pix is just TWO of the custom rifles I built while in school (sold the front one for a little over $1500 - it's a Howa receiver in .308 with a #7 Shilen barrel and has a Unertl 10x scope on top - the custom built up M14 Norinco - which was basically just the receiver- everything else was US National Match parts - barrel, trigger group, bolt is in the background and went for $1200 if I remember correctly - both back in 1998). The second pix is of three shots touching from a custom rifle I made in school - that's 1/2 MOA with a five mph cross wind - left to right (I used this pix for my business card, which is what I scanned in for you). For YOUR info, I built more rifles in 14 months at school than YOU'VE SWITCHED BARRELS ON.

http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/a...1&d=1190349769

http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/a...1&d=1190349342

Re: Sako TRG-42
 

Wallee Woo!


I am sure you are a nice guy. Why not act like it?
You haven't ever built a benchrest rifle for a ranked competitor have you?

The Unertl scope might have great nostalgia factors going for it, but their optics and scope mount systems have been obsolete for about 45 years.

Is a gunsmith is like a proctologist? Maybe you think everyone you meet is just another asshole?


Just because you have a degree in gunsmithing doesn't mean a heckuva lot. Bernanke has several degrees in business and look how he has ****ed up the whole country.

Now, if we get back to the issues...

I took my mitutoyo dial caliper and measured a magnum bolt face for bolt nose thickness; it measured .065. The magnum bolt nose is thinner than the standard which I just measured to be .10". Your standard bolt (for a .308 you said) measured .065. I think you don't have a standard bolt, but a magnum.

IF you think a Remington bolt can be opened up to SuperMag/.338Lapua dimensions; well, go ahead convince some sap to do this and spend $1000 to let you butcher a good action.

The Remington action is not large dimensioned enough to serve as a platform for a .338 Lapua, but some dumbass gunsmith somewhere will say, "Let's give it a whirl!"


Seems I recall the US Marines specifying the H-S Precision Tactical stock w/adj length of pull for their .308 rifle. Opinions, assholes etc make a horserace, I guess.

A McMillan A-5 stock with pillars installed and bedded to action by their shop costs about $1200. Sure, the product is functional and adequate. Like those $4500 Tubb 2000 rifles the McBros make. Is a Tubb 2000 worth the money? Not to me.

A Remington Sendero will shoot all day long with most custom rifles, better than many if you bed the action and set back the barrel; but there's no money in doing that, is there?

Actually, I think a guy can spend a couple hundred on reloading gear, buy an inch pound torque wrench, buy an RCBS Precision Mic for his ctg of choice; a really good scope and ring/mount set and beat lots of $3000 "custom" rifles. Of course those buying "custom" rifles don't spend the money they need to on Badger or Near scope bases & rings, much less a $1000+ scope.

Ever use a TRG Wallee?
Don't like the trigger pull? Get out your metric allen wrench and adjust the pull to your satisfaction. Perfectly safe. No waiting. No $50 fee to pull the action etc.
Stock doesn't quite fit you? Add a cheekpiece spacer ($20).
Want more length of pull? Add a spacer ($30).
Need to cant the buttpad? Adjust it to your satisfaction.
Want a folding stock? Buy a new rear section ($1000+ wow!).
Want the cheekpad moved in/out so your eye is perfectly centered to your scope? Just adjust the cheekpad position.

Want to add a muzzlebrake or silencer? The barrel is already threaded.
Want a solid steel bipod that mounts integral to the stock, cants and has a lot of travel adj?
Want more accessory choices than any other rifle offers?

I especially like the M-1/14 safety lever inside the triggerguard.
I especially appreciate a bolt that dismantles in 5 seconds for cleaning

If I was going for a .338 Lapua, I'd want an action built to handle the cartridge, not one that might/could be adapted to it, but was really too small. The Sako TRG action measures 6.935" from back of the receiver bolt clearance to front shoulder of the receiver, the Remington is a lot shorter at 5.35" for the same action dimension.

The Sako TRG 22/42 is about the most widely adapted military sniping weapon system in modern history.

But sniping rifles aren't often hunting rifles. One thing we haven't touched on is the Army typically adds a lot of weight to the McM stocks it buys for its snipers. Those rifles are going at about 15lbs once set up compared to about 13 for the TRG w/scope and full magazine.


My perspective remains that you are ahead of the game buying a TRG 22/42 or Accuracy Intl rifle ready-to-go, or a Remington Varmint Special, PSS or Sendero over a "custom" rifle.

Re: Sako TRG-42
 

Whoa.... looks like we've got a battle of the titans here, or at least titanic egos. All I know is, the most popular rifle in the Finnish sniper competition is the one I want.

Re: Sako TRG-42
 

MM,
Well, the best I can see from ALL you've written on this thread is you must work for SAKO.

Best rifle? BULLSHIT.

It's a tool. Kind of like you are.

But hey, YOU'VE given me so much to point to HOW STUPID YOU ACTUALLY ARE, that I'm just gonna give up.

You OBVIOUSLY DON'T KNOW SHIT about weapons, about a how to operate a machine shop, about building a custom rifle, well there's OBVIOUSLY SO MUCH YOU DON'T KNOW ABOUT, I don't even know where to start.

All those things you listed about the TRG is your way of TRYING to rationalize basically a $4000 factory custom rifle that is actually worth less than $2k. And for that SAME $2k, you will end up with a rifle that has ALL the features you described (minus the legs folding into the stock - that's a $2k option I can live without).

And speaking of it's legs folding out. BFD. So do the ones on the HK G36 (who wasn't even the first manufacturer to do this) but it's a weapon I would ALSO not suggest. Nor would I suggest the BEST SNIPER RIFLE IN THE WORLD, the $10K (not $5k as stated in the article) HK PSG1, again for a LOT of different reasons.

Dude, you are either a SAKO TROLL or an absolute freakin idiot. Perhaps both.

If you ACTUALLY knew how to read, you will see WAY up in this thread I even said he could have the same rifle, built on a SAKO receiver with a different stock that had ALL the BS things you think are 'sooo kewl' and AGAIN won't come CLOSE to spending $4000.

Please, get a life, grow up. Get some REAL experience. Come back when some of those have happened. Otherwise, as ususal you have NO CLUE from which you speak. And every time you open your mouth, YOU PROVE IT.

Oh, and I missed the pix you posted of that 'benchrest rifle' you built for that national competitor. Oh, wait, you didn't take any pictures of it after it was built? :sarc: So I guess I'll just take your word on it...:sarc:

Re: Sako TRG-42
 

Wallew,

There are lots of gunsmiths out there who've never built a bonafide benchrest rifle. It is not a disgrace to admit this.

I own the rifles I am discussing here. I also do my own gunsmithing, within my limits. No I don't own a lathe, don't have to. It would be pretty dumb for me to invest $5k for a decent 36" lathe and the shop space to run it. I do however own many tools and tooling to use with such a tool. Maybe someday.

Troll? No, I don't live under a bridge, and I don't work for anyone.

You seem to have your facts wrong. There is no integral bipod with a TRG 22/42. I own a McM stock, not an A5; but in fact I asked them about inletting an A-5 for a TRG-S action and they cannot provide such an animal.

I have owned an Accuracy Intl 1.5 stock for a Rem 700. It was Damn Heavy, and not at all as flexible or responsive to an operators needs as is the Sako TRG stock.

You think an H-K 91 sniper is a good system? You must think Tom Berrenger's movies are hot stuff. I think an AR-10(T) with a giessele trigger is about equal.

I am not one who is very convinced that Remington actions need "truing". Lots of your brethren make heavy bread doing all sorts of work to these actions that is superfluous. Maybe they really don't know what they are doing? I will say that so many use the Rem 700 Short Action for their .308 efforts that it unnecessarily handicaps their clients with the short magazine box. Then again, maybe most clients don't handload?

Funny thing about rifle smithing, much of it simply creates confidence; not that it earns the confidence, but the guy who thinks he has "the best" might just shoot his best, and ultimately it's his skill and confidence that delivers the goods.


To get back to my endorsement of the Sako TRG 22/42 system, as someone interested in accuracy rifles, and appreciative of well designed equipment, there is no other rifle like it.

No other rifle has a detachable trigger that can be replaced in the field with only an allen wrench. No other rifle has the inside the trigger guard safety which moves so quietly. No other rifle incorporating these features also has a simply adjusted trigger pull.

No other rifle has a stock like the TRG.

One expert I corresponded with felt the trigger guard's plastic construction disqualified the rifle from serious construction, but this is not a general battlefield deployed rifle, so maybe an allowance can be made. I can make that allowance for the excellence the TRG affords.

Money? Is $3000 for an immediate delivery item worth it? Probably. Did your customers order rifles from you to save money? Probably not.

The Sako bipod is expensive, but it is a specialty tool. If the cost gripes you, order a Harris and their adapter. If the cost of the muzzlebrake gripes you, consider how much it costs to have a smith dismount your barrel, thread it, time the brake and maybe re-crown the muzzle. About $300 if you choose a decent brake. For $200 and no wait, plus the adjustable flexibility of the Sako, you get more than what you pay for. Oh yeah, the barrel is threaded already, and you didn't have to pay $50 extra for a thread protector.

Damn Remington bolts do suck-eggs if you must dissemble them in the field. Got that special tool? A Winchester model 70 would be superior in this dept. Sako is as fast and easy to dissemble as the Winnie.

Sako accessories are likely to become more expensive, but that is the cost of excellence. If our guy wants to do a switch barrel rifle, the TRG42 can accomodate any magnum ctg. You may need a different bolt body and a barrel. Pac-Nor will deliver a turn-key barrel very reasonably For another $700, you could have a .300Win Mag and a .338 Lapua. Or go with a .375 H&H and you don't need another bolt-body, so your cost is $400

My combo is .300Win and .338 Win, eventually .338/300. I also have an assortment of sporter barrels including .340 Weatherby.

Getting a McMillan A-5 is about a 7 month wait these days. I see no reason to wait. Apparently, many others feel the same way. Sako sells out the TRG rifles they import pretty quickly.

I still stand by my comments about barrel burning and magnums. At least a mild loaded Win Mag is not that much more than a .30-06, so maybe there is some potential for longevity there. Not much for the .338Lapua I'm afraid. That is a real specialists rifle. Not many of us going to fire at any targets 3/4 of a mile away, are there?

Re: Sako TRG-42
 

I'm going to point out a few things for the REST fo the forum.

You are a 'self described' expert. Yet you won't post ONE PICTURE showing us your work OR the results of your work. So we just what, take your word for it?

You feel you don't NEED a lathe to build a competition benchrest shooter? I suppose you built that benchrest rifle for that national benchrest shooter without one? WAAAHAHAHAHAHA - YEAH, RIGHT.

You think the HKPS1 is NOT the superior weapon that it is? I've fired one. HAVE YOU? If I ever win the Lotto, I'd buy one in a New York minute. And NO the AR-10 can't hold a candle to it. I've fired several of these. They are OK, but NOTHING compared to the PS1

Sako TRG is (as is MOST of the SAKO STUFF) highly over rated for what they charge. You speak SO HIGHLY of the TRG, yet then you say : but this is not a general battlefield deployed rifle, you are back pedaling away from the statement of what a GREAT rifle this is, with the caveat of "except in REAL WORLD CONDITIONS" - not the 'safety' of the benchrest shooters table. But this means this rifle WON'T do what shades2 wants. Which is a SHTF rifle. If those won't be 'battlefield conditions' I don't know what will be.

You went to McMillan for a stock and they quoted you a wait time? See, that's why going to GUNSMITHING SCHOOL does for you, it puts me at the head of their line ANY TIME I CALL. If you want one, I can probably get you one shipped in about three weeks. OR, I know two gunshops and one gunsmith that HAVE the A4 in stock - ALWAYS.

Same for Brownells. You will pay FULL RETAIL. Me? AGAIN, because I'm a graduate of a BONAFIDE gunsmithing school, I get everything BUT TOOLS at a discount.

I am not one who is very convinced that Remington actions need "truing". Lots of your brethren make heavy bread doing all sorts of work to these actions that is superfluous. Maybe they really don't know what they are doing?

The first part of that statement show EXACTLY HOW LITTLE YOU KNOW ABOUT GUNSMITHING. Most gunsmiths DO what their customers ASK THEM to do. THEN WE CHARGE THEM MONEY. That's how it works. AND YEAH I KNOW WHAT I'M DOING. Apparently you don't. And the ONLY TOOL I need to disassemble a Rem 700 bolt is a vise (you DO use padded vise jaws, yes?) and my hands. That's all. I've disassembled these so many times that I can almost do it in my sleep. But there is a TRICK to disassembling the bolt without the tool you mentioned. I know that trick. Again, you apparently do not. See what a good gunsmithing school will teach you?

That is a real specialists rifle. Not many of us going to fire at any targets 3/4 of a mile away, are there?

At least you ADMIT the .338 Lapua IS a great round for long distance shooters. And I find the comment about "not many long distance shooters out there" after you want to CONSISTENTLY BEAT THE BENCH REST SHOOTING DRUM TO PUFF YOURSELF UP REALLY ODD.

So, lets see.

You don't ACTUALLY know ANYTHING about operating a lathe.

You SUGGESTED I should have a BRIDGEPORT MILL, when most of what Bridgeport sells is NOW fully CNC. They still make ONE that is manual. Yet it's cost is prohibitve. Which is WHY everyone purchases the chinese manufactured machine shop tools. But you don't even know that. SO, YOU OWN A BRIDGEPORT DO YOU? I'll go out on a limb and guess that YOU don't own a mill either. And if you DO, it's a REALLY OLD ONE, say made around the WWII time period.

All you seem to have is YOUR OPINION, which you rate VERY HIGHLY. I think the truth of the matter is you don't like being 'called' on your bragging bullshit. TOUGH NUGGIES.

You know JACK SHIT about firearms. You know JACK SHIT about operating a machine shop. You know JACK SHIT about working metal by hand. You know JACK SHIT about finishing firearms metal. You know JACK SHIT about wood working the stocks (I was given a hunk of wood and was REQUIRED to make a stock out of it - have you?). As a matter of fact, when it comes to firearms your so called knowledge is actually repetition of what others say and your own bullshit, not any ACTUAL experience.

Hell, I was REQUIRED to 'fix' forty firearms in less than eight weeks BEFORE I could graduate. And the INSTRUCTORS picked the weapons. My specialty? Taking the firearms that OTHER gunsmithing students had screwed up (almost all of THEM were slowly but surely washed out) and fixing their screw ups. It's my specialty.

Now, lets talk about a well rounded gunsmith.

I have repaired and built pistols, rifles, shotguns AND Class III automatic weapons (the very first guy I worked for was a Class III dealer). HAVE YOU?

YOU SUPPOSEDLY BUILD 'BENCHREST' RIFLES. But you just can't seem to provide us with ANY VISUAL PROOF that YOU built them. Hell you can't even provide us VISUAL PROOF that you actually OWN ANY. You even IMPLIED that you built a bench rest rifle for a 'national champion benchrest shooter', but AGAIN, provide no proof. You don't own a lathe or a mill, yet you want us to just take your word on it that you know what you're doing.

You go from berating ME about not doing benchrest work - no real money in it, as ALL the bench rest shooters in this area that I know do all their OWN work - to bragging about YOUR SKILLS, which you provide no proof for. And the benchrest shooters I KNOW are as ANAL as I am about turning THEIR SPECIALLY ORDERED BARREL BLANKS ON THE LATHE THAT THEY OWN (which you don't own). Yet you make all sorts of claims that we are just supposed to take your word on.

Yeah, right. YOU DA MAN ALL RIGHT. :stupid::thumpdown

Re: Sako TRG-42
 

If I were going after buf in the bush as the OP asked about, I would seriously consider that previously mentioned Marlin 45-70 with open sights as my first choice. Shots will be close 90% of the time and a quick follow-up much more important than minute of fly scat accurracy. The "guide model"[I think that is what they call it]lightened stainless composite stocked Marlin will handle loadings that are 85% or more of what a 458 Winchester produces. A very light quick tough dependable powerful rife.

Was in Alaska for a few years three decades ago and this rifle's inspiration, the Winchester 86s and 36s in the wildcat 450 Alaskan were still in very high demand.

With dangerous game of any sort it is best to stick with proven concepts and equipment, and not get sucked into the fads.

Re: Sako TRG-42
 

I saw a reputable seller offering a New TRG42 in .338 Lapua for $2350. Came back to post a pm to Shades, but was unable. That is a below wholesale good deal on one of these rifles.

No target-tactical rifle I know of is going to have a chrome-lined bore or action, but maybe I should have picked up on that before I swatted this tarbaby.

regards to all.

Re: Sako TRG-42
 

MM,
Go pick up this months (Nov 07) copy of 'Tactical Weapons". In you will find an article called 'Protecting the Holy Land'.

H-S Precision is an American company that produces the SWS in .338 Lapua for the IDF.

The IDF wanted the barrel to shoot 6,000 rounds before replacement. The BEST H-S Precision could offer them was 1300 rounds a year for two years before they rebarreled the weapon. THAT'S 2600 ROUNDS of .338 Lapua.

So much for your 600 rounds and the barrel is 'burned out'.

AND for once, you got it right. H-S Precision uses 416R SS barrels that are cut, not buttoned. http://www.hsprecision.com/new_barrels.htm

You REALLY need to become a bit more 'informed' in your knowledge base BEFORE you put your foot in (well, where EVER you put your foot).

Re: Sako TRG-42
 

Wallew,

If you could even get in the game long enough to buy a vowel, you might get your spin right.

When you are talking Minute of Rib Cage, accuracy is relative.

Since you never have, & now will never build a benchrest gun; why bother learning the facts? The competitors shooting 6mmPPC rifles prove sufficiently that the barrels are toast in 600 rds. Now we are talking Hart barrels, Shilen barrels, predominantly.

The Sierra bullet techs will tell you the same thing: Even a stainless match grade barrel is toast in 700rds when firing magnum ctgs.

Are the IDF going for ten shot groups into 4" or less at 1000 yds? No. But the 1,000 yd benchrest shooters are.

Maybe you could find a copy of Precision Shooting Magazine, and get a clue what "precision shooting" is about, and what factors effect barrel life and thereby diminish accuracy.


Something you likely haven't got a clue about either is Shilen's position that "improper cleaning methods probably ruin more barrels than anything else". He is talking about rounding over the lands, removing the crispness of the crown with an oval wear pattern from patching, and also cleaning way too damn often.

I dunno Wallew-dude? If this is where you want to be a Juke-Box-Hero; I won't rain on your parade.

You might just try owning and shooting one of these rifles.

You also might look at what is going on in the world. You might just gather-in the idea that maybe ordering a 12 mo wait to delivery, custom-rifle could mean that you will never hold that rifle in your hands.

Guy was telling me, a 5 month wait from McMillan for a Winchester tactical stock. That's just their estimate for delivery, 5 mos! Then, how long for you to inlet that stock? When will you order the barrel? Takes 6 mos to get a barrel these days.

Tell me about how your employer ran their shop? Customer paid up front for the rifle? $2000? Maybe $3000 for something more than a Rem 700 basic action with a custom barrel? Then you guys order-in the goodies?

Can't buy actions anymore from Remington, gotta buy a complete rifle. $700
Order that barrel blank $300-$500 (if fluted).
Order that McM A-5 $800

You gonna sell these items at cost to your customer?
How much to inlet, set pillars, and bed the stock? $300?
How much to profile, finish, thread and chamber that barrel $250?
How much to tune that junk Remington Trigger, or install a custom one $75/$250
How much to true the action and bolt face, set a custom recoil lug, thread for and supply a muzzlebrake and thread collar? $500
Then, maybe you need a custom Firing Pin Spring, a titanium firing pin and a bolt shroud? $200
Forgot the custom floorplate, don't want that Remington pot steel junk $200


I'm coming up with $2000 just for the basic, non gunsmithed components. Then for you to work your magic, make some $$, and to get that "custom" result? I come up with another $1700.

Maybe it has been a Long Time Since you've done one of these jobs?


Shit, Wallew! Why not just send $5K to the Nationally recognized, world-class sniper rifle builders and be sure. Why take a chance with some guy whose claim to fame is he got a degree from Colorado Gunsmithing School?

Even better, buy an Armalite AR-10(T) for $1700, sell the upper for $900 and get GA Precision to build you a Krieger barreled upper in .308Winchester. The barrel will likely last 6,000 rds if you don't Rambo it up with rapid fire. If you want a 1000yd gun, go .260 Rem or 6mmXC, the David Tubb designed ctg which is basically a 6mm/22-250 Ackley Improved.

Shooting big magnum cartridges burns the accuracy edge out of any barrel. All you gotta do is ask the guys who shoot competitively.

If you want the finest and most versatile accuracy stock in the world, Sako TRG 22/42 21/41 has it.

If you want the finest factory accuracy rifle going that will handle 5-10,000 rds of .308Win; go with a TRG 22. Wholesale they are about $2400, and have a 10 shot magazine standard. No need to spend $300 - $500 for a 10 shot magazine system for that Very Expensive, but very custom Rem 700 which after all is said and done, is still just a Rem 700...

Re: Sako TRG-42
 

I really think buying a custom Rem 700 is a waste of money; unless a guy is really enamored of making a showpiece out of a Rem 700.

The above cost summary is pretty accurate.

If you buy a Chandler sniper rifle, you have a real collectors item.
A GA Precision rifle is in the same class.
A Sako TRG or Accuracy International is in the same league, although a production line piece.

It is like taking a Ford Mustang and spending $50,000 more on it or just ordering a Porsche. The Porsche is a known quantity. You might turn that sow's ear Mustang into a fire-breathing and handling monster; but a Porsche is always a known quantity.

Accuracy Intl sells replacement barrels, and even has video on their website for how you can change barrels at the range and be within .25" at 100 yds after doing nothing more than torque setting the barrel onto the action. No headspacing, no gunsmithing tools required. Barrels are affordable (relatively).


I have seen lots of guys try to sell their custom Rem 700s and get nothing more than the wholesale value of the parts. Who knows if the parts are amalgamated into an accurate rifle? Who knows if the barrel is burnt out? (Do you have a Borescope? At $1000, I sure don't!)


Do you buy a Porsche, or want to build a Porsche beater?
If you buy that Porsche, history suggests you will recoup your investment.
Same way with rifles.

Re: Sako TRG-42
 

MM,

You've NOW POSTED SO MUCH BULLSHIT that I don't even KNOW where to begin.

All those TIME FRAMES YOU POSTED? They apply TO YOU. NOT TO ME. I get to slip to the 'front of the line' anytime I pick up the phone BECAUSE of my gunsmithing degree. You know all those PRICES YOU POSTED? That's RETAIL COST. Not MY COST. My cost is ALWAYS LOWER, which is HOW I make MY money. I sell at retail. Apparently YOU MARK UP THE RETAIL PRICE SO YOU CAN MAKE MONEY. That's actually cheating your customers, if you ACTUALLY HAD ANY.

Want a Rem 700 receiver, go to Brownells, they have them IN STOCK. At least FOR ME they have them in stock.

And all that 'work' you say needs to be 'done' to finish off a McMillan A-4 stock has already BEEN DONE AT MCMILLAN. But you didn't even seem to know that. I doubt you've actually ever handled ANY McMillan stocks.

My GOD MAN, does your IGNORANCE KNOW NO LIMITS?

That rifle up above that I POSTED? #7 Shilen barrel. Shoots 1/2 MOA.

You CONSISTENTLY seem to think YOUR IDEAS on long distance shooting are 'it', yet again, you just can't seem to POST anything other than the drivel that comes out of your mouth.

How about a PICTURE OR TWO to back up your so called WORK? I did. Or is that just TOO TOUGH for you to do? Probably BECAUSE you have NEVER done any real work on ANY REAL WEAPONS. Just in your imagination and what you read in 'Precision Shooter' magazine.

What crap.

Again, I've posted MY WORK. Try putting yours where your mouth is.

But we will NEVER see any work you say you've done. BECAUSE YOU HAVE NOT DONE ANY WORTH WHILE WORK THAT YOU CAN POST HERE.

Get a life. Go back to reading your magazines and bragging to your friends. Because in the REAL WORLD, you are just another BULLSHITER.

Re: Sako TRG-42
 

Wal-Lew,

About the only centerfire rifle bolt actions that Brownells sells these days are Dakota and CZ, they do catalog a lot of AR-15 gear, but no Remington 700 actions. In fact, even Midway states that Remington 700 SA & LA standard bolt face actions are no longer available from the factory.

If you think you get to "go to the head of the line" because you have a gunsmithing degree; you are way over the hill. McMillan makes everybody but the US Govt wait until they are good and ready; even then, the govt has to wait til the production has been readied. McMillan is not a huge business enterprise with massive payroll of workers.


There is no point in trying to reason with you, Wal. You've never built a benchrest rifle. You've never handled, much less fired, or adjusted the trigger or stock on a TRG22/42. You know that 120 gr of powder burning in the throat area of a stainless barrel does no appreciable harm. Shilen, Hart, Obermeyer, Krieger, Schneider and others who make their living selling barrels with gilt-edge accuracy would argue with you, but not as long as I have...

We haven't even begun to scratch the surface here. But, aside from casting aspersion towards me, (not making counterpoints in discussion which a knowledgeable shooter-gunsmith could do), you don't really say anything.


I challenge anyone to find a gunsmith anywhere, who will deliver a turnkey job as Wal-Lew outlined for only $2000, in less than 8 months.


Looking at McM's price list today, they get $468 for an A-5 stock, another $84 for a decelerator buttpad, $12 for pillars, $274 for glass bedding, $14 for QD swivel studs, $48 to inlet for a floorplate, and up to $180 to custom inlet for a non-standard action or barrel. Potentially, a custom A-5 stock could cost $1000 and we haven't even included and adjustable cheekpiece. You're looking at close to $1200 if you include an adj cheekpiece. Another $50 for Kevlar cloth and you are set! Then you wait about 7 or 8 months.
see http://www.mcmfamily.com for more info. I own a Mc htg stock and it is pretty nice.


Your are wrong about your gunsmithing degree making a difference.
All that matters is whether you have a gunsmiths FFL or not. Having been a journeyman gunsmith, not owning the shop, likely you've never had an FFL in your own name, just operated under one where you worked. I don't really know. I've never performed gunsmithing services for anyone but myself.


There are very few people who really understand the dynamics of rifle accuracy and how to control the variables that can deliver sub .5moa groups at any range up to 1000 yds. Guys that brag about their 3 shot groups only do so because their 5 or 10 shot groups are so lousy.

Re: Sako TRG-42
 

I just LOVE how YOU know all about the benefits I GET from being a graduate from an acredited gunsmithing school that you never attended.

I DO get to go to the head of the line, a BENEFIT of attending an acredited a gunsmithing school THAT YOU NEVER ATTENDED.

Brownells DOES sell Rem 700 actions. Maybe not to you, but I spoke to their 'tech dept' last week. No problems were their answer. How many do you want.

Still no pictures.

Still flapping your gap.

Still repeating yourself WITHOUT ACTUALLY having any proof. TYPICAL OF A MORON.

So for everyone else, feel FREE to listen to this LYING PIECE OF SHIT MORON for your firearms info. You WILL regret it.

Re: Sako TRG-42
 

OK, that's enough guys. Please tone it down.

Re: Sako TRG-42
 

s2,
All you need do is get MM to STOP LYING and I'll shut up.

BUT I WILL NOT SIT BY IDLY AND ALLOW HIM TO DISSEMINATE FALSE INFORMATION WHEN IT COMES TO FIREARMS.

He can lie his @ss off about money or anything else and I could care less, but his lack of knowledge about firearms could get one or more of our members KILLED.

I WILL NOT ALLOW HIS FALSE INFORMATION TO BE POSTED UNCHALLENGED.

That's just who I am.

Re: Sako TRG-42
 

Wal-Lew,

If you call someone a liar, but have no knowledge of the facts he/she is citing, it just proves you are ignorant.

I have posted no lies here. Are you going to Double-Triple dog dare me next?

The bullet techs at Sierra have told me they also see magnum rifle barrels shot out at 700rds. The best benchrest competitors replace their barrels every season or at 600+ rds whichever comes first. The Sako stock and trigger systems are the finest production items of their type in the world. Remington does not sell actions any longer.

These facts are fiction in your world?

If you are interested in accurate rifles, I can recommend a number of books. You might also try revisiting your professional sources to witness current prices for yourself. You might also try ordering a firearm from any dealer, if all you have is your Gunsmithing Diploma. That dealer will ask you which dealer you want your action or firearm sent to for delivery. Same receiving dealer will make you pass the FBI Background Check like any other honest citizen.

I have never lied or BS'ed anyone on this website about any topic.

I have the money and time to indulge my interests in firearms. What I have said here is what I have experienced.

Re: Sako TRG-42
 

YOUR WORST NIGHTMARE:

From the October 1, 2007 SHOTGUN NEWS pgs 26 - 30

MULTIPLE PIX OF LONG DISTANCE "BENCHREST/PRECISION SHOOTERS" using (OMG) Rem 700 actions AND McMillan A5 STOCKS.

First two pix are of an A5 McMillan with a Rem 700 action
http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/a...1&d=1191183809

http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/a...1&d=1191183809

Last two are already labeled - First one is on an AICS stock (JUST FOR YOU MM) mounting a Rem action - the last one is the MILITARY M5 McMillan stock mounting a Rem 700 action.

http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/a...1&d=1191183809

http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/a...1&d=1191183809

YOU really need to 'crawl out of your cave' every once and a while so you can join the real world. Oh - WAIT - That means you would ACTUALLY HAVE TO ADMIT ------ YOU ARE A MORON WHEN IT COMES TO FIREARMS - and I chose the words moron and liar VERY CAREFULLY, as those seemed NICER than saying you are INTENTIONALLY MISLEADING people here ON PURPOSE TO MAKE YOURSELF FEEL GOOD.

And YES you HAVE LIED AND BS'ed people here, at least when it comes to firearms . You consistently still say a barrel will be 'shot out' at 600 rounds (everyone notice that MM is already 'back pedaling' to 700 rounds now?). That makes you a LIAR. You have had this pointed out to you, yet you consistently stick by the same set of incorrect facts. THAT makes you a MORON. Maybe in the fanatsy world you live in where YOU are king and every fact you make up is real, well, fine. BUT IN THE REAL WORLD, your statistics or 'facts' ARE INCORRECT. PERIOD. END OF STORY.

Re: Sako TRG-42
 

I think you are twisting the issue, my disingenuous and ignorant friend.

Very likely, none of the Remington 700s you cite were chambering .30-378 or .338 Lapua Magnum ctgs. I mention in my first post that the .338 and .300 RUM ctgs are about the maximum for the 700 mag action, and that they are virtually identical to the much vaunted .338 Lapua.

Lotta people like McMillan stocks.

More custom rifles are built with Rem 700 actions than any other bolt rifle, at least for tactical and accuracy use. Doesn't mean anything, just that for off the shelf bolt rifles, they are very damn accurate and available. Savage is also popular as I've mentioned last week.

You really don't know jack about benchrest and accuracy building though. The Remington actions take a helluva lot of work and have none of the resale value of a Nesika, Stolle, Shilen, Hart or other benchrest ready action. Some of these makers now have tactical versions, which means they have a receiver cut-out machined for a magazine box or detachable 5 or 10 shot mag.

Look at what GA Precision of Kansas City sells. If you want a basic Rem 700 with a custom barrel and "prepared" McMillan A-5 stock, you are looking at $3000 not $2000 as you are so certain.

I think if you study the files over at 6mmbr.com http://www.6mmbr.com/index.html
you can find a great deal of info about accurate longrange shooting and rifle building. That you cite Shotgun News is just amazing. You are like the CCI tech guy I spoke with last year who didn't know what Sinclair International is. Anyone in the reloading business should know about one of the leading suppliers of benchrest tools, gear and reloading supplies.

Wallew, there are hundreds of "discussions" where the benchrest newby justifies using a Remington action to save money. The experts point out that it takes many hundreds of dollars to turn that sows ear into a purse, and then all you have is a sows ear. After you true everything including the receiver body, lugs, bolt face, nose, sleeve the receiver for rigidity, then put a 2oz trigger from Shilen or The Man in Lockhart Texas, you have a $400 action with $600 worth of time and work into it. Better to buy the real-deal up front.

Now evidently this is a world you no nothing about.
There are many adaptations that can benefit the tactical shooter from the benchrest world. Service Rifle and other High Power shooters are similarly oriented toward Precision.


The original topic was about a .338 Lapua Sako TRG 42 for shooting WaterBuffalo. Not exactly a longrange or accuracy proposition.


There is another board that many longrange hunting afficionados congregate at. longrangehunting.com it is called, amazingly enough. Most there are going with 30-36" heavy barrels, Lilja is the favorite over there, semi-custom actions, a variety of stockmakers, and .300AI Rem Ultra Mag or .338/300 RUM (.338 edge). These rifles weigh well over 20lbs, some over 30. They are shot off tripods or portable benches across canyons at elk, mule deer etc. Scopes and mounting systems are really critical.

You might read what Dan Lilja says about barrel life. Most of the barrelmakers have FAQs on their websites.

Precision Shooting has a big book called The Benchrest Primer that has comments by many of the expert gunsmiths, barrelmakers, and world-class shooters. There is lots that can be learned by anyone who studies that book. You might learn that much of what I have recounted here is accepted as gospel in that shooting discipline.


What irks me the most is to see so much dumbass advice given about Finding The Perfect Load For Your Rifle. Self-styled experts advise trying every brand of primer, 4 or more powders, 4 or more bullets and then shooting 5 or 10 ctgs for each variation, working over .2 grain increments in powder. This adds up to a burned-out barrel (if shooting a magnum) before you even quit load development. But that is what passes for sage advice.

Of course, if ol' sage doesn't comprehend that barrel life is finite, likely he just thinks this is a "good idea".

Too bad there are so many Macho Estupidos that gather wherever firearms are discussed.

Re: Sako TRG-42
 

Here is a comment about barrel life from a benchrest gunsmith over at Benchrest Central Forums in the gunsmithing section. The topic is barrel life:

" 300WSM vs 308Win Barrel life
It is a simple fact the more powder buring, higher presures and heat the shorter the barrel life. The military only requires a 2 moa in an infantry rifle and 5000 rounds is the goal with 7.62 X 52 NATO very simular to a 308.

The PALMA shooters all shoot 308 from 800 to 1000 yards. Most retire their barrels after 3000-4000 rounds. Their accuracy expectency is sub 1 moa.

I have several F-Class shooters shooting 308s with 210 Bergers over a heavy load of VV 550. Their barrel life expectancy is about 2600-3000 rounds before a set-back or replacement Their accuracy is sub .5moa.

I have several match rifle and F-Class open shooters shooting the 300 WSM. Most are finding that throats erode and accuracy drops off after 800- 1200 rounds. In a hunting configuaration this may be extended a few hundred rounds.

Every barrel is a little different and ones accuracy needs vary.

Rustystud


Now, what the guy hasn't addressed is what a real magnum rifle will do, burning 100-120 grains of powder. The .300Win Short Mag burns up to 66gr as a MAX load with a 200gr bullet, the .300 Win Mag burns up to 83 as a max load, the .300RUM up to 104gr, and the .30-378 burns up to 112 grains.

Now the guy calling me a liar, likely can't understand that at almost twice as much powder (66gr vs 112gr) there is more rapid throat burning and errosion; but that just proves his professional ineptitude.


Here is a FAQ from a custom builder I have no knowledge of: http://www.bryantcustom.com/faq.htm
This guy has a lot of useful info, and says 1500 rds for barrel life in a benchrest chambered barrel (.22ppc 6x47, 6mmppc etc) 6ppc has a max load of 30gr, .22ppc about 25gr. Much less powder, longer life.


Another comment:

From: Gale McMillan <" gale"@mcmfamily.com>
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Help on barrel burnout
Date: 12 Mar 1997 18:21:00 -0500

r_tech@earthlink.net wrote:

# How do you determine when a barrel is burned out? Does its accuracy
# go to hell or what?
#
# My rifle is nowhere near that if that is the case, but I have seen
# lots of posts here regarding barrels being burnt and or worn out.

A barrel is gradually burned out by erosion of the throat and bore.
First the rifling in the throat starts to round off rather than have
sharp corners. Then it starts to disappear gradually until you no
longer can touch the rifling with the bullet. About this time the
entire bore starts to heat check. That is when tiny shallow cracks
start appear all over the throat area and a few inches down the barrel
that look like the mud flats in a dry lake bed. Continual firing will
cause these small squares to pop out causing the bore to get rough and
hard to clean. Performance starts to deteriorate about the time you
can't touch the rifling with the bullet and deteriorates gradually.
When a barrel is new if you shot it a hundred groups you would get say 4
or 5 groups that were very small, 8 or 10 that were small 60 that were
average and so on. As a barrel goes, the number of smaller groups get
fewer and fewer. The big groups don't get bigger but your aggregate
gets larger. When it is time to replace it is when you feal you can't
live with the agg. that it is shooting. I have seen magnum match rifles that were still shooting respectable scores and didn't have any rifling
visible for several inches down the barrel. It wouldn't beat a good rifle but still shot pretty good. I always changed my barrels before they showed any loss of accuracy because I couldn't afford to spot my competitors any. As for a hunting barrel, don't worry about it because you won't shoot it enough to see any change in your off hand shooting.

Gale McMillan
http://yarchive.net/gun/barrel/wear.html

Re: Sako TRG-42
 

Geez MM,
You have NOW given EVERYBODY a pretty good description of WHAT a burned out barrel is and HOW it occurs.

I WOULD LIKE TO POINT OUT TO EVERYONE that IN THAT DESCRIPTION, AT NO POINT DOES GALE MCMILLAN SUGGEST THIS OCCURS WITHIN 600 rounds.

Then you go TO ANOTHER INTERNET SOURCE and give us a quote.

I've got an idea. How about getting that 'NATIONAL BENCHREST CHAMPION' that you built all those rifles for to come on here, POST HIS PICTURE WITH HIS TROPHY AND HIS ID TO PROVE IT'S HIM and have HIM say ALL HIS BARRELS ARE SHOT OUT IN 600 ROUNDS.

OR

POST US SOME PIX OF ALL THOSE KEWL BENCHREST RIFLES YOU'VE BUILT.

Oh, wait, you don't own a mill, you don't own a lathe and DON'T KNOW HOW TO USE EITHER OF THEM. So you actually have NOT DONE ANYTHING BUT FLAP YOUR GAP.

Please, once again a picture is worth a MILLION WORDS. So, enlighten us WITH A FEW PIX.

But you don't have any and can't.

Folks, I'd pretty much say that tells the tale.

I have CONSISTENTLY PUT PHOTO'S UP for this maroon to actually see that I DO KNOW what I'm talking about BECAUSE I'VE DONE IT AND HAVE POSTED THE PIX TO PROVE IT.

MM on the other hand, just can't quite post ANYTHING but HIS OPINION.

WORSE IS, IT'S NOT HIS OPINION, IT'S THE OPINION OF SOMEONE ELSE FROM A DIFFERENT INTERNET SITE WHERE THEY LIKE TO STROKE EACH OTHER AND TELL EACH OTHER HOW GREAT THEY ARE.

Please also note that by quoting that other internet site NONE of it actually say any barrel is burned out in 600 rounds. One says 3k - 4k, another says 2k - 3k and yet a third says 800 - 1200 rounds.

WOW, he's NOW backpedaled from 600 to 1200 rounds. Lets see, do I HEAR 2000? Yep. Do I hear 3000? YEP. Do I hear 4000? YEP! And THAT'S THE PART WHERE WE AGREE. Most high powered rounds shot out of CUSTOM BARRELS (that MUST be turned on a lathe to fit ANY receiver - but MM has NEVER DONE THAT) will burn out their barrel between 2k - 4k rounds, depending on the round. Depending on the shooter. Depending on the maintenance. Depending on the 'gun gods'.

MM, why don't you just go back over to the benchrest forum AND STAY THERE. That way you can all hold hands and sing Kum By Yah by the light of your computer screen. Stop coming over here and spreading LIES AND BULLSHIT.

YOUR ADVICE IS AT THE VERY LEAST SPECIOUS. AT WORST IT COULD GET SOMEONE HERE KILLED. :no_ma:

Re: Sako TRG-42
 

Another comment from a "pro" about the Sako TRG 42:

from: http://www.tacticalforums.com/ubb/Fo...ML/000071.html



Larry Vickers Member posted 02-25-2002 22:18

"Got to fill you guys in on one of the best kept secrets in the industry.

If you have never heard anything about the SAKO TRG 22 and 42 sniper rifles listen up.

These guns are very well made and designed, and have a SUPERB reputation for extreme accuracy.

Best part of it is they are still very reasonably priced compared to other guns on the market.

I like the design much better than the Accuracy International rifles and they are about HALF the money!

Quick story; My buddy Ken Hackathorn was doing a class recently for some foreigners who were in the market for some .338 Lapua sniper rifles. They had T&E samples of the SAKO TRG 42, a Robar SR 90, and another custom bolt gun to evaluate.

At first Ken was very lukewarm toward the TRG 42 - not having any real personal experience with it, he just thought it was another 'rail' type bolt gun from europe.

By the end of the training session that week the TRG 42 had the undivided attention of everyone there - It had COMPLETELY dominated the other two guns, to the point of being ridiculous.

The finishing touch was when one of the visitors shot a 5 shot group at 300 yds that measured 1 5/8 inches.

Needless to say the T&E gun was purchased and the TRG 42 had everyone talking to themselves.

I just ordered a TRG 22 ( .308 ) complete with bipod, scope mount, and extra 10 rd magazine - I got a GREAT deal.

I can't tell you what it is but bottom line is this - this gun is an absolute DEMON - word is the factory will not ship it if it does not shoot 1/2 inch at 100 meters ( I will confirm this at the IWA show this year with the SAKO reps ) - and for the money it is the best kept secret in the industry."

Re: Sako TRG-42
 

About the most negative remark I ever heard any professional make about the TRG22/42 was that the trigger guard was plastic.

Now there are some pretty tough plastics out there, and since this triggerguard is somewhat protected by the extended magazine housing of the stock and the handgrip, it would be a real fluke to drop the rifle just right to break the triggerguard; yet accidents do happen.

Re: Sako TRG-42
 

There is a great deal of interest in the Sako TRG 22 & 42 among precision and longrange shooters everywhere on the internet.

I recently met another switchbarreler who was setting his TRG up for Palma type micrometer sights.

The Sako rifle is the finest Factory-Built rifle in .338 Lapua chambering that there is. It is a close race between the TRG42 and the Accuracy International AW costing thousands more.


I can only wonder how many commenting members here own or have ever held or seen one of these rifles? They are not very common. They are very hard for retailers to keep in stock. Not many tyros pay $3000 for a rifle without even a swivel stud.

But who was baiting whom here?

Re: Sako TRG-42
 

My Sako was well worth the premium. .308 makes more sense as the second "only" rifle. Water buffalo seems like a very rare, unique application to base this purchase upon.

Re: Sako TRG-42
 

I love this thread!
Great re-read.:applause_

Is there really anything better that a fired-up Wallew???

Re: Sako TRG-42
 

The Sako TRG 42 is the point of discussion here. It is factory Chambered in only .300Win Mag or .338Lapua Mag.

The TRG 22 is the .308 version, shares some common appearances and all accessories but is Not the same rifle. Receiver dimensions, magazine and bolt sizes are different.


I thought it very interesting that Wallew, who professes to be a gunsmith, showed earlier on this thread that he is too ignorant to know that the .338 Remington Ultra Mag and the .338 Lapua Mag are not the same cartridge. The Remington 700 has never been factory chambered for the Lapua. Remington, in fact, does not endorse use of the model 700 action for Super-Magnum cartridges which are of much greater size than standard magnum ctgs. Of course, Wallew (fired-up and fueled by ignorance), shows his confusion plainly on his reply of 9-19. Also funny to see his remarks about building a custom rifle, since he plainly is out of the loop on costs for quality components, but here we are talking .338 Lapua and he did not comprehend this or doesn't know about the cartridge.

The "fired up Wallew" says on 9/20
"Actually, I've held and shot a Rem 700 Ultra action in .338 Lapua. Going to gunsmithing school, you get students that JUST HAVE TO HAVE the biggest baddest cartridge ever."

The Remington Ultra mag cases use a rebated rim and require specially altered receiver rails to function in the Rem 700 Magnum action. The .378Weatherby based cartridges and the .416Rigby ctg which the Lapua is adapted from are Much Larger in every dimension. The bolt nose of the Rem 700 mag is pretty thin, even with standard magnum cartridges. Adapting the Rem 700 bolt to Lapua ctg requires embracing too many safety pitfalls to make it recommendable, so the factory doesn't. But Wallew is a font of secret knowledge, evidently.

But, "the gunsmith" mouths off with more crap, like "stoning a 5lb trigger".
"You CAN replace the Remington trigger, but I found that if you just smooth up all the inner workings with an India Stone and then properly adjust it, I get a crisp break at 5 lbs of pressure."

What "inner workings"? I doubt Wallew has ever taken a Rem 700 trigger apart to get at the "inner workings". To adjust the factory trigger to perfect break requires no "smoothing of inner workings". There are adjustment 3 screws on the trigger housing, there are no inner serviceable parts unless you cut the housing open with a hacksaw and then intend to spot-weld it back together, but maybe Wallew is such a perfectionist that he does this? He is the only gunsmith alive who does if this is so.

Wallew rants on about 5 # triggers, and liability on another thread, but admits he would stone trigger parts to adjust the pull? Trigger parts are typically heat-treated for hardening, stoning them can remove the very thin hardened layer of steel which would more likely than not, be enough evidence to shift legal liability from a "bad gun owner" to a "poorly educated gunsmith", in the event of a trigger malfunction.

But the bullshitting just never stops...
It would be comical if the subject material weren't important.